Janet Chernela Interview with Davi Kopenawa
Recorded in Demini, Parima Mountain Range, Brazil
June 7, 2001
This interview was conducted June 7, 2001, in the Yanomami
village of Demini, Parima Highlands, Brazil. I had known Davi, who is a recognized spokesperson on
indigenous affairs, through prior meetings in New York and in Brazil. Arrangements for the interview were made through CCPY, a
Brazilian non-governmental organization working on behalf of the Yanomami. In
this I relied on long-term contacts with CCPY and their abilities to reach Davi
by radio. (Individuals who provided assistance included Marcos Wesley de
Oliveira, Bruce Albert, Gale Gomez, and Ari Weidenshadt.) Although Davi now
lives in Demini, he is from Totoobi, where, as a child of 9 he was vaccinated
by the Neel team. Davi's comments about the period of the Neel collections must
be understood as childhood recollections.
In the measles epidemic of 1968 Davi lost his mother and siblings. He and his older sister are the only
remaining members of his immediate family. Both recall having supplied blood to the researchers. As you will see in the interview, they
are not concerned with the whereabouts of their own blood as they are the
whereabouts of the blood of their deceased relatives.
I invited Davi to participate in what I call "reciprocal interviewing" -- that
is, he could interview me as I could interview him. You will see that he exercises his privilege toward the end
of the interview. He understood
that he was invited to speak to the American Anthropological Assocation in this
interview, and refers to the Association in the course of his talk.
Davi and I spoke in Portuguese. The interview was recorded on audio and video-tape, and
later translated from tapes into English. Paragraphs, titles, and bracketed
comments were added. Since
Portuguese is not first language to either of us, it is not clear that the word
choices were ideal. In some cases
I included Davi's choice of Portuguese term.
The publication of Patrick Tierney's Darkness in El Dorado is dated Jan. 17, 2002; an English-language
copy was circulating on the internet about six months prior to its publication.
At the time of the interview no Spanish or Portuguese version yet existed. A
number of anthropologists had discussed the Tierney book with Davi before my
arrival. Among these were Bruce Albert, Leda Martins, and an anthropologist
whose name Davi could not recall.
That anthropologist may have been Javier Carrera Rubio, a Venezuelan
anthropologist who worked briefly for CCPY. I was accompanied in this interview by Ari Weidenshadt of
CCPY, who participated actively in the discussion. For an understanding of events in 1968 the interview should
be evaluated in light of documents that have been released since it was conducted. The words of Davi Yanomami, however,
continue to have resonance beyond the past to include the enterprise of
anthropological research, in general.
The implications for globalization, cultural rights, and morality, are
far-reaching.
"RECIPRICAL INTERVIEWS"
While walking to the shabono,
a circular, thatch-roofed communal dwelling, I can overhear Ari speaking to
Davi in the distance. Through my
tape-recorder, I first hear Davi:
Davi: "hunt,
tapir, monkey...bringing relatives together...call together people to kill the
guy who killed own member...remembering, crying, everyone is
angry..ai...Everyone goes there, they paint themselves. Prepare arrows. Get together alot of people -- 50
Yanomami. They go to another shabono. Bring food, arrows, sleep in the forest. Next day get closer, and sleep close to
the shabono. So they know..they will be
avenged. At dawn, the enemy
approaches. While people are sleeping inside, they wait...then when people go
out to urinate -- tchong! They strike with arrows. Arrows. Everyone wakes up, grabs his bow and
arrows [and flees]. Everyone is
running. They run out another
exit, shootong as they go. There
are three types of fighting. This
is the third. THIS is war.
Janet: Does this
actually happen?
Davi: Yes.
Janet: Did it
happen in your lifetime?
Davi: Yes. I know about it because when I was
small my uncle carried out alot of wars like this.
Janet: So it no
longer occurs?
Davi: No, no one
does this anymore. The warriors
died. We are their children and we don't make war. You can't fight any more.
Janet: Is that
group in Surucucú fighting?
Davi: Yes, they
are fighting there. Because there
they killed alot of people -- they killed the headman of Surucucú so they
[group from Surucucú] went over to Moxavi and killed the headman over
there. The headman of Surucucú was
a valiant warrior and a hard worker.
He was an honest person. So
his children avenged his death and killed the headman of Moxavi. Now it's calm.
Janet: Where are
the children today?
Davi: They are
over there in Surucucú -- Xerimú, Vinice, Hakoma, Tarimú Davi's comments about
the period of the Neel collections must be understood as the recollections of a
child at the time., they are in Surucucú -- enemies of Moxavi. Three groups are
friends: Piris, Surucucú,
Arawapu.
Janet: How many
people live in Surucucú Davi's comments about the period of the Neel
collections must be understood as the recollections of a child at the time.?
Davi:
Thirty-something people, divided.
The group that is making war is four hours walk away. They stopped fighting -- they had to go
back to work in their gardens.
Food began to run out -- there were no more bananas because they were
afraid to leave the house to work in the gardens. They were afraid that people from Moxavi would attack. They
are using fire arms over there at Surucucú [army post in Brazil near Venezuelan
border].
Janet: How did
they get these fire arms?
Davi: They got
them from the goldminers who invaded our land.
Janet: Are there
Yanomami in the army base at Surucucú Davi's comments about the period of the
Neel collections must be understood as the recollections of a child at the
time.?
Davi: No. In the beginning they [government]
wanted that. They called Yanomami
to serve in the army base. But
no. Life in the armed forces isn't
a good thing. It's very bad. It's another kind of work -- another
fight. So they went back. They continue to be Yanomami. You must be who you are, the way you
are. If not, you will suffer
alot. It will be wrong. You will do many things wrong.
Janet: In Homoxi
do they have war?
Davi: I don't
know. The Escurimuteri were allies
of the Wahakuwu and they are enemies of people of Thirei and Homoxi [villages I
visited in 2000].
Janet: Do people
of Thirei use shotguns?
Davi: Yes.
Janet: From where
did they get them?
Davi: From the
miners.
Formal Interview: Davi on the book Darkness in El Dorado by Patrick Tierney
Davi: An
anthropologist entered Yanomami lands in Venezuela. Many people know about this. ...This book told stories about the Yanomami and it spread
everywhere. So I remembered it
when our friend [unnamed anthropologist] mentioned his name. When that young man spoke the name I
remembered. We called him
Waru. He was over there in
Hasabuiteri... Shamatari...A few
people -- Brazilian anthropologists -- are asking me what I think about
this.
Anthropologists
who enter the Yanomami area -- whether Brazil or Venezuela -- should speak with
the people first to establish friendships; speak to the headman to ask for
permissions; arrange money for flights.
Because nabu (the white)
doesn't travel without money. Nabu
doesn't travel by land. Only by
plane. It's very far. So he's very far away, this
anthropologist who worked among the Shamatari. Those people are different.
He
arrived, like you, making conversation, taking photos, asking about what he
saw. He arrived as a friend,
without any fighting. But he had a
secret. You can sleep in the shabono, take photos, I'm not saying
no. It's part of getting to know
us.
But, later what happened was this. After one or two months he started to learn our
language. Then he started to ask
questions, "Where did we come from, who brought us here?" And the Yanomami answered, we are from
right here! This is our land! This is where Omam placed us. This is our land. Then the anthropologist wanted to learn
our language. I know a little
Shamatari, but not much. So, he
stayed there in the shabono, and he
thought it was beautiful. He
thanked the headman and he took some things with him. He brought pans, knives, machetes, axes. And so he arrived
ready, ready to trick the Yanomami. This is how the story goes. I was small at the time...[pointing to
a boy] like this..about nine. I
remember. I remember when people from
there came to our shabono. They said, "A white man is living
over there. He speaks our
language, he brings presents, hammocks." They said that he was good, he was generous. He paid people in trade when he took
photos, when he made interviews, [or] wrote in Portuguese [likely Spanish],
English, and Yanomami, and taperecording too. But he didn't say anything to me.
[tape changes
here]
An
anthropologist should really help, as a friend. He shouldn't deceive.
He should defend...defend him when he is sick, and defend the land as
well...saying "You should not come here -- the Yanomami are
sick." If a Yanomami gets a
cold, he can die. But he didn't help
with this. The first thing that
interested him was our language.
So today, we are hearing -- other Yanomami are talking about it --
people from Papiu, Piri, and here.
People of Tootobi -- my brothers-in-law -- they also are talking about
the American anthropologist who worked in Hasabuiteri. He wrote a book. When people made a feast and afterward
a fight happened, the anthropologist took alot of photos and he also taped
it. This is how it began. The anthropologist began to lose his
fear -- he became fearless. When
he first arrived he was afraid.
Then he developed courage.
He wanted to show that he was brave. If the Yanomami could beat him, he could beat them. This is what the people in
Tootobi told us. I am here in
Watorei, but I am from Tootobi. I
am here to help these people. So I
knew him. He arrived speaking
Yanomami. People thought he was
Yanomami. There was also a
missionary. He didn't help
either. They were friends. That's
how it was. He accompanied the
Yanomami in their feasts...taking [the hallucinogen] ebena, and after, at
the end of the feast, the Yanomami fought. They beat on one anothers' chests with a stone, breaking the
skin. This anthropologist
took photos. And so he saved it,
he "kept" the fight. So,
after, when the fight was over, and the Yanomami lay down in their hammocks, in
pain, the anthropologist recorded it all on paper. He noted it all on paper. He wrote what he saw, he wrote that the Yanomami
fought. He thought it was
war. This isn't war, no! But he wrote without asking the people
in the community. You have to ask
first. He should have asked,
"Yanomami, why are you fighting?
You are fighting, hitting your very brother." He should have helped
us to stop fighting. But he
didn't. He's no good.
I will explain.
The
nabu [whites] think that every type
of fighting is war. But there are
three kinds of fighting [as follows].
Ha'ati kayu [titles
were added later]: the chest fight to relieve anger. Let's say your relatives
take a woman. So you get
angry. The Yanomami talk and form
a group to fight against the other group that took the woman. So they make a feast. They call him
[the relative that took the woman.]
They hold him and use this club [gesturing to indicate a length about a
foot long] to hit him on the chest. This club-striking is not war. It's fighting. So, let's say this guy took my
woman. I become his enemy. So I hit him here [pointing to
chest]. I want to cause him pain.
He can hit me too. This club is
not war. It's to get rid of a mess
in the community. Then there's the headman. What does the headman do? He says, "OK, you have already fought. Now stop this." So they stop. This fight doesn't kill anyone.
Xeyu. There's another kind of fight, Xeyu. Let's say I have a friend who speaks badly of me. He might say I'm a coward, or he
might say I'm no good. So he has
to fight my relatives, my family.
I have ten brothers. So I
can decide whether he's a man, whether he has courage. So we call friends from other shabonos and set a date. We go into the forest and make a small
clearing for the fight, so people can see that we are angry. We take this weapon -- it's a long
stick -- about 10 ms long. So
everyone is there. I'm here, and
the enemy is there. Everyone is ready to hit. When I hit the enemy he hits me as well. My brother hits his brother and his
brother hits mine back. This is
how we fight [two lines with people fighting in pairs].
Janet: How does
it end?
Davi: When
everyone is covered with blood -- heads bloodied, everyone beaten. So the headman says, 'OK, enough. We've already shed blood. So, it's over. This isn't war either, no.
Janet: It's not
war. But it includes one group
lined up on one side, and another on the other -- yes?
Davi: Yes. One group of brothers or the members of
a shabono in one line and the other
brothers in another line.
Davi: Then there
is another kind of fight with a club that's about a meter long -- Genei has
one. Everyone gathers and stands
in the center of the shabono. The
enemy comes over. But again the
headman is there. He says, 'you can't hit here, you can't hit here [gesturing]
-- you can only hit here -- in the middle of the head. It doesn't kill anyone.
Yaimu, Noataiyu,
Nakayu, Wainakayu, Bulayu. But if you hit in the wrong place, he can
die. So, if this happens, a
brother will grab an arrow and go after the one who killed his brother. They will both die -- the first with
club, the second with arrow. So,
what happens? The relatives of the
man killed with the club carry the body to the shabono. They take it there. They put it in the fire, burn it,
gather the ashes and remaining bones and pound them into powder. They put the ash in a calabash
bowl. His father, his mother, his
brothers, all of his relatives sit there at the edge of the fire, crying. So
the warrior thinks. If they have
ten warriors, all angry, they are going to avenge the death. So the father may say, "Look, they
killed my son with a club, not with arrow." He can stop the fighting right there and then. Or, he can say, "Now we will kill
them with arrows." Then
they would get all their relatives and friends from the shabono and nearby communities. They make a large feast, bringing everyone together. We call this Yaimu, Noataiyu, Nakayu, Wainakayu, Bulayu. Then they get manioc bread [beiju] and offer food to everyone. Everyone is friends -- the enemies are
way over there. Then they leave
together. The women stay in the
house, and the warriors leave to make war. They cover themselves in black
paint. This is war. This is war: Waihu, Ni'aiyu. Waihu, Ni'aiyu, Niaplayu,
Niyu aiyu. Then, at about nine
or ten o'clock at night they start walking. These warriors are going to sleep at about 5 AM. In the forest they make a small lean-to
of saplings. The next day they
leave again. They are nearing the
enemy. After tomorrow they are
there. They don't arrive in the
open -- they sneak up on the shabono. They move in closer about 3 or 4 in the
morning. The enemies are sleeping
in the shabono. The warriors
arrive just as the sun is coming up.
This is 'fighting with arrows' -- Waihu,
Ni'aiyu, Niaplayu, Niyu aiyu.
These are war -- war with arrows, to kill. He [the enemy] can be brother, cousin, uncle.
Janet: Is it
vengeance?
Davi: It is
vengeance.
Davi: So this Chagnon, he was there; he
accompanied it. He took
photographs, he recorded on tape, and he wrote on paper. He wrote down the day, the time, the
name of the shabono, the name of the local descent group. He put down these names. But he didn't ask us. So we are angry. He worked. He said that the Yanomami are no good, that the Yanomami are
ferocious. So this story, he made this story. He took it to the United States. He had a friend who published it. It was liked. His students thought that he was a courageous man, an honest
man, with important experience.
Janet: What is
the word for courageous?
Davi: Waiteri. He is waiteri
because he was there. He is waiteri because he was giving orders. He
ordered the Yanomami to fight among themselves. He paid with pans, machetes, knives, fishooks.
Janet: Is this
the truth or this is what is being said?
Davi: It's the
truth.
Janet: He paid
directly or indirectly?
Davi: No, he
didn't pay directly. Only a small
part. The life of the indian that
dies is very expensive. But he paid little. He made them fight more to improve his work. The Yanomami didn't
know his secret.
Janet: But why
did he want to make the Yanomami fight?
Davi: To make his
book. To make a story about
fighting among the Yanomami. He
shouldn't show the fights of the others.
The Yanomami did not authorize this. He did it in the United States. He thought it would be important for him. He became famous. He is speaking badly about us. He is saying that the Yanomami are
fierce, that they fight alot, that they are no good. That the Yanomami fight over women.
Janet: It is not because of women.
Davi: It's not
over women that we go to war.
Janet: It's not
over women that one goes to war with arrows?
Davi: It's not
over women that we go to war with arrows.
It is because of male warriors that kill other male warriors.
Janet: to avenge
the death?
Davi: [Yes,] to avenge. I no longer think that the
Yanomami should authorize every anthropologist who appears. Because these books come out in public.
I ask if he has message.
Davi: I don't know the anthropologists of the
United States. If they want to
help, if ...you whites use the judicial process ..
Janet: Would you
like to send a message to the American Anthropological Association?
Davi's Message to the American Anthropological Association
Davi: I would
like to speak to the young generation of anthropologists. Not to the old ones who have already
studied and think in the old ways. I want to speak to the anthropologists who
love nature, who like indigenous people -- who favor the planet earth and
indigenous peoples. This I would
like. This is new, clean,
thinking. To write a new book that
anyone would like, instead of speaking badly about indigenous peoples. There must be born a new anthropologist
who is in favor of a new future.
And the message I have for him is to work with great care. If a young anthropologist enters here
in Brazil or Venezuela, he should work like a friend. Arrive here in the shabono. He should say, "I am an
anthropologist; I would like to learn your language. After, I would like to
teach you." Tell us something
of the world of the whites. The
world of the whites is not good. It is good, but it is not all good. There are good people and bad people. So, "I am an anthropologist here
in the shabono, defending your rights
and your land, your culture, your language, don't fight among yourselves, don't
kill your own relatives."
We
already have an enemy among us -- it is disease. This enemy kills indeed. It is disease that kills. We are all enemies of disease. So the anthropologist can bring good messages to the
Indian. They can understand what
we are doing, we can understand what they are doing. We can throw out ideas to defend the Yanomami, even by
helping the Yanomami understand the ways of the whites to protect
ourselves. They cannot speak bad of
the Yanomami. They can say,
"The Yanomami are there in the forest. Let's defend them.
Let's not allow invasions.
Let's not let them die of disease." But not to use the name of the indian to gain money. The name of the Indian is more valuable
than paper. The soul of the Indian
that you capture in your image is more expensive than the camera with which you
shoot it. You have to work calmly. You have to work the way nature
works. You see how nature
works. It rains a little. The rain stops. The world clears. This is how you have
to work, you anthropologists of the United States.
I never studied anything. But I am a shaman, hekura. So I have a capacity to speak in Yanomami and to speak in
Portuguese. But I can't remember
all the Portuguese words.
Ari: You have to
be clear, this is important.
Davi: To repeat,
Chagnon is not a good friend of our relatives. He lived there, but he acted against other relatives. He had alot of pans. I remember the pans. Our relatives brought them from there. They were big and they were
shallow. He bought them in
Venezuela. When he arrived [at the
village], and called everyone together, he said, [Yanomami]..."That shabono, three or four shabonos," as if it were a ball
game. "Whoever is the most courageous will earn more pans. If you kill ten more people I will pay
more. If you kill only two, I will
pay less." Because the pans
came from there. They arrived at
Wayupteri, Wayukupteri, and Tootobi.
Our relatives came from Wayupteri and said, "This Chagnon is very
good. He gives us alot of
utensils. He is giving us pans
because we fight alot."
Janet: They
killed them and they died?
Davi: Yes. Because they used poison on the point
of the arrow. This isn't
good. This kills. Children cried;
fathers, mothers, cried. Only Chagnon was happy. Because in his book he says we
are fierce. We are garbage. The book says this; I saw it. I have the book. He earned a name
there, Watupari. It means king
vulture -- that eats decaying meat.
We use this name for people who give alot of orders. He smells the indians and decides where
he will land on the earth. He
ordered the Yanomami to fight. He
never spoke about what he was doing.
Davi: And, the
blood. If he had been our friend
he would not have helped the doctor of the United States. He would have said, you can go to the
Yanomami. The Yanomami don't kill
anyone -- only when you order them to.
Chagnon brought the doctors there, he interpreted because the Yanomami
don't speak English. When the
doctor requested something he translated it. So when the doctor wanted to take blood, Chagnon translated
it. But he didn't explain the
secret. We didn't know either --
no one understood the purpose of giving blood; no one knew what the blood had
inside it. ...
After, the missionaries who lived in Totoobi spoke to my
uncle, my father-in-law. He said,
"Look, this doctor would like to take your blood; will you permit
it?" And the Yanomami said, "Yes." He agreed because he would
receive pans -- pans, machetes.
Janet: But he
didn't explain why?
Davi: The
Yanomami was just supposed to give blood and stand around looking. He didn't talk about malaria, flu,
tuberculosis, or dysentery. He
said nothing about these things.
But he took alot of blood.
He even took my blood. With
a big bottle like this. He put the
needle here [pressing the veins of his inner arm]; put it here, the rubber tube
over here. He took alot! I was about nine or ten. He arrived there in Totoobi with the
doctor. Chagnon translated. The missionaries, Protestants, lived
there in Totoobi. They camped
there. They slept there. And they ordered us to call other
relatives: there were three shabonos. They called everyone together. Husband, wife, and children, altogether. They always took the blood of one
family together. They took my
mother's blood. They took my
uncle's blood. My father had
already died. And me. And my sister. She remembers it too. It was a bottle -- a big one -- like
this. He put a needle in your arm
and the blood came out. He paid
with matihitu-- machete, fishhooks,
knives. The doctor asked him to
speak for him. He translated. He would say, "Look, this doctor
wants you to allow him to take your blood." And the Yanomami understood and allowed it. The missionaries who lived there hardly
helped. They were mimahodi, innocents.
Janet: The law
controls this now.
Davi: Nobody can
do this anymore. So now we are
asking about this blood that was taken from us without explanation, without
saying anything, without the results.
We want to know the findings.
What did they find in the blood -- information regarding disease? What was good? Our relatives whose
blood was taken are now dead. My
mother is dead; our uncles, our relatives have died. But their blood is in the United States. But some relatives are still
alive. Those survivors are
wondering -- "What have the doctors that are studying our blood found? What do they think? Will they send us a message? Will they
ask authorization to study and look at our blood?" I think that Yanomami
blood is O positive. Is it useful
in their bodies? If that's the case, and our blood is good for their bodies --
then they'll have to pay. If it
helped cure a disease over there, then they should compensate us. If they don't want to pay, then they
should consider returning our blood.
To return our blood for our terahonomi.
If he doesn't want to return anything, then lawyers will have to resolve the
issue. I am trying to think of a
word that whites do...sue. If he
doesn't want to pay, then we should sue.
If he doesn't want a suit, then he should pay. Whoever wants to use it, can use it. But they'll have to pay. It's not their blood. We're asking for our blood
back. If they are going to use our
blood then they have to pay us.
Janet: I don't
know where it is. It may be in a
university.
Davi: The blood
of the Yanomami can't stay in the United States. It can't. It's not their
blood.
Janet: So this is
a request for those who have stored the blood?
Davi: I am
speaking to them. You take this
recording to them. You should
explain this to them. You should
ask them, "What do you Nabu
think?" In those days no one
knew anything. Even I didn't know
anything. But now I am wanting to
return to the issue. My mother
gave blood. Now my mother is dead.
Her blood is over there. Whatever
is of the dead must be destroyed.
Our customs is that when the Yanomami die, we destroy everything. To keep it, in a freezer, is not a good
thing. He will get sick. He should return the Yanomami blood; if
he doesn't, he [the doctor] and his children will become ill; they will
suffer.
Janet: Were there
repercussions in the area of medical services after this book came out?
Davi: No. FUNAI used to bring in vaccines. When they stopped the government health
agency, FUNASA, took over. Now
it's [the NGO] URIHI. They have
ten posts in the region and bring vaccines to all the villages. Each post has
an employee.
Janet: Are these
services only on the Brazilian side of the border?
Davi: Only in
Brazil.
Janet: Is that
why Yanomami from Venezuela frequent the URIHI posts?
Davi: Yes. Here we have a chief. The president of Brazil. He is bad, but he is also good. He provides a little money for us to
get medicines. He provides
airplanes and nurses to bring vaccinations and treatments from Boa Vista all
the way here. The Brazilian
government is now helping -- somewhat.
It's not very much, but it is something. We in Brazil are very concerned about our Venezuelan
relatives. Because over there
people are dying -- many people --
from malaria, flu.
Ari: I am talking
about the epidemic of measles in 1968.
I am asking Davi if this began before or after the arrival of Neel and
Chagnon.
Davi: I think it
began before their arrival. Many
were dying. After they took blood,
many died. So this missionary,
Kitt, went to Manaus. He went to
Manaus and there his daughter became ill with measles. She picked up measles in Manaus. At first they didn't know it was
measles. They took a plane from
Manaus to Boa Vista and from there to Totoobi. She arrived sick there, all three -- father, mother and child. Then they realized that it was measles. So they asked us to please stay away
from them. He said, "If you
get measles you will all die.
Please stay far away." They had no vaccine in those days. A Yanomami entered to greet her and he
ordered the Yanomami to leave. But
he had already caught it. So then
the missionary spoke to us all, saying, "Look, you can't come to our house
because my daughter is ill with measles. Stay in your house." It didn't accomplish anything. The disease spread. It went to the shabono. Everyone began to get sick, and to
die. Three nearby shabonos -- each of them with people ill
and dying. My uncle was the
first to die. Then my mother died.
Another sister, uncle, cousin, nephew.
Many died. I was very sick
but I didn't die. I think Omam
protected me to give this testimony.
My sister and I remained.
Janet: Your uncle
died, your nephew, your mother...
Davi: uncle,
nephew, mother, relatives...So, later [when the road opened], we died
also. This place was part of
Catrimani. When the road [BR 210,
Perimetral Norte] was open, there were MANY people here. Most died then of
measles. Only a few survived [he
recalls the names of the survivors] -- only ten men survived. I was here [working with FUNAI at the
time], we brought vaccines for the measles epidemic then. These things happened in our land...FUNAI
didn't take care of us before the road opened.
Janet: What years
are we discussing?
Davi: 1976, no
1975.
Ari: The road
went from the Wai Wai to the mission at Catrimani.
Davi: They had
roads BR 210-215.
Ari: After it was
closed the forest reclaimed the road.
Janet: When was
it closed?
Davi: After the
invasion of the garimpeiros.
Janet: Did the
garimpeiros come in this far by road?
Davi: Yes. We
would try to stop them. I once got
everyone together to go to the road with bows and arrows to block the
entrance. I said, this isn't a
place for miners. We won't allow
it. I said if you want to mine, it
had better be far from here, because if you stay here you will die here. Our warriors are angry. So they left. I invented all that so they would leave and they did. So they passed by. There were more than 150 -- more people
than we had.
Janet: Is there a
word for "warrior" in Yanomami?
Davi: Yes, waiteri.
Janet: Waiteri means warrior.
Davi: Yes; waiteri is courageous, brave. Those that aren't are horebu.
Janet: And that
means..?
Davi: Scared,
fearful, weak.
Janet: Do these
concepts have power still today?
Davi: No. This fight isn't going on any
more. But we are still waiteri. No one controls us.
Here, we control ourselves.
And there are some warriors.
There's one over there in Ananebu.
A waiteri is over there in
Ananebu, in the forest. Here at
home, in THIS shabono, we are all
cowards [chuckles].
Davi Interviews Janet
Davi: I want to
ask you about these American anthropologists. Why are they fighting among
themselves? Is it because of this
book? Is this book bad? Did one
anthropologist like it and another one say it's wrong?
Janet: First, in
the culture of anthropologists there is a type of fighting. This fight comes out in the form of
publications. One anthropologist
says, 'things are like this,' the other one says, 'no, things are like this.'
So, after Chagnon's book came out he received many criticisms from other
anthropologists. Some said, this
should not be called war. Just as
you said. But Chagnon provided a
definition of war and continued to use that word. This was one of the criticisms made by anthropologists. After this there were others, and these
debates went on in the publications and in conferences. In the year 1994 there was a conference
in which anthropologists debated the anthropology of Chagnon and others among
the Yanomami. In 1988-89, when
there was a struggle over demarcation of Yanomami lands and the Brazilian
government favored demarcation in island fragments, the anthropologists of
Brazil criticized Chagnon's image of the Yanomami as "fierce," saying
it served the interests of the military in limiting Yanomami land rights. At that time the American
Anthropological Association did not have explicit ethical guidelines. At that point they formed a committee
to develop guidelines for ethical fieldwork and a committee of human
rights. Now, with the book by
Tierney and the support of anthropologists who have had criticisms of Chagnon,
the issue was brought before the Association. This raises questions about the ethical conduct of
anthropologists.
Davi: But will
the anthropologists resolve this problem?
Janet: They will
demand that anthropologists conform to the norms of the newly revised
ethics. They will explicitly
clarify the obligations of the anthropologists.
Ari: In 1968 when
Chagnon worked, there was no code of ethics of the Association.
Davi: What about
the taking of blood?
Janet: Performing
any experimentation has been controlled by the medical profession since
1971. It is now prohibited to
involve people in experiments without their explicit authorization. They must be made completely aware of
the advantages and disadvantages, and all purposes. They must decide whether they will agree or disagree to
participate. Nowadays, this
consent has to be in writing or taped.
Davi: This Yanomami
blood is going to stay there? Or
will they return the blood?
Janet: I don't
know. It must be in a blood bank,
perhaps at the University of Michigan.
Ari: Chagnon
[once] proposed an exchange between the Universidade Federal of Roraima and the
University of California at Santa Barbara. He was proposing a collaboration in human genetics with a
graduate student in biology. She
worked with DNA. He invited her
there. Her name is Sylvana
Fortes. She is now doing a
doctorate at FIUCRUZ in Rio de Janeiro.
Another issue in this dispute is Darwinian evolutionism. Is this the
idea of the impact of the environment on man?
Davi: I don't like this, no. I don't like these anthropologists who
use the name of the Yanomami on paper, in books. One doesn't like it.
Another says its wrong. For
us Yanomami, this isn't good. They
are using our name as if we were children. The name Yanomami has to be respected. It's not like a ball to throw around,
to play with, hitting from one side to another. The name Yanomami refers to the indigenous peoples of Brazil
and Venezuela. It must be
respected. This name is
authority. It is an old name. It is an ancient name. These anthropologists are treating us
like animals -- as they would fish or birds. Omam created us first.
We call him Omam. He created earth, forest, trees, birds, river, this
earth. We call him Omam. After him, he called us Yanomami
[Yan-Omam-i]. So it must be
respected. No one uses it on paper
to fight -- they have to respect it.
It is our name and the name of our land. They should speak well of us. They should say, "These Yanomami were here first in
Brazil and Venezuela." They should respect us! They should also say that we preserve our land. Yanomami
know how to conserve, to care for their lands. Yanomami never destroyed the earth. I would like to read this. Speaking well of Omam, and of the
Yanomami. This would be good. But if they are going to go on fighting
like this--I think that the head of the anthropologists has money ..
Ari: But Tierney's
book, even as it criticizes Chagnon, has become a major seller. He is earning money selling his book
because of the theme. ...
Davi: Bruce
Albert, Alcida Ramos are not Yanomami.
You have to call the very Yanomami, to hear them speak. Look, Alcida speaks Sanuma. Chagnon speaks Shamatari. And Bruce speaks our language. So there are three anthropologists who
can call three Yanomami to speak at this meeting. The anthropologists should ask us directly. The Yanomami can speak his own
language. These anthropologists
can translate. They have to hear
our language. They have to hear us
in our own language. What does the
Yanomami think? What does the
Yanomami think is beautiful? You
have to ask the Yanomami themselves.
These people are making money from the Yanomami name. Our name has value. They are playing with the name of an
ancient people. I don't know alot
about politics. But I see and hear
that an anthropologist is becoming famous. Famous -- why?
Some think its good. So he
became famous, like a chief. So
among them nothing will be resolved.
One becomes famous, the other one [his critic] becomes famous, and they
go on fighting among themselves and making money...
Janet: Did you
know Tierney?
Davi: I met him
in Boa Vista. I went to his
house. He didn't say anything to
me about what he was doing. So,
Chagnon made money using the name of the Yanomami. He sold his book.
Lizot too. I want to know
how much they are making each month.
How much does any anthropologist earn? And how much is Patrick
making? Patrick must be
happy. This is alot of money. They may be fighting but they are
happy. They fight and this makes
them happy. They make money and fight.
Janet: Yes; the
anthropologists are fighting.
Patrick is a journalist.
Davi: Patrick left the fight to the
others! He can let the
anthropologists fight with Chagnon, and he, Patrick, he's outside, he's free. He's just bringing in the money -- he
must be laughing at the rest. Its
like starting a fight among dogs.
Then they fight, they bark and he's outside. He spoke bad of the anthropologist -- others start fighting,
and he's gaining money! The name
Yanomami is famous [and valuable] -- more famous than the name of any
anthropologist. So he's earning
money without sweating, without hurting his hands, without the heat of the
sun. He's not suffering. He just sits and writes, this is great
for him. He succeeded in writing a
book that is bringing in money.
Now he should share some of this money with the Yanomami. We Yanomami are here, suffering from
malaria, flu, sick all the time.
But he's there in good health -- just spending the money that he gained
in the name of the Yanomami Indians.
Ari: One American
had patented the name Yanomami on the internet.
Davi: She was
using our name for an internet site or to write a book and earn US$20,000. A Canadian working for CCPY discovered
this. My friend explained that
they are using the name of the Yanomami without requesting authorization. I said I didn't like it. So I sent her a letter. She was an American journalist. So she stopped. So I was able to salvage the name of
the Yanomami. ... They have alot of names. They don't know the trunk and the roots of the Yanomami.
They only know the name. But the
trunk and the roots of the Yanomami, they don't know. They don't know where we were born, how we were born, who
brought us here. Without knowing
these things, no one can use the name.
I
am speaking to the American Anthropology Association. They are trying to
clean up this problem.
They should bring three Yanomami to their meeting. There are
three anthropologists who understand our three languages:
Chagnon, Alcida, and Bruce. These anthropologists could translate. We could speak, and people could ask
questions of us. I could go
myself, but it would be best to have three from Venezuela, or four, perhaps one
from Brazil. They need to see our
faces. Alcida doesn't look like a
Yanomami. Nor do Bruce or
Chagnon. They don't have Yanomami
faces. The Americans will believe us
if they see us. I went to the
United States during the fight against the goldminers. They believed me. For this reason, I say, it's important
to go there and speak to them. ...
This is a fight between men who make money.
I ask what the appropriate form of compensation for an
anthropology interview, and he says money. "That way he can buy what he wants -- pan, machete,
axe, line, fishing hooks. It is good
to speak to Yanomami. If you give
money to the whites, they put it in their pocket. Nabu loves
money. It's for this reason that
the nabu are fighting. Its not for him, for friends, its for
money."